00:00:00: Most agencies are selling time.

00:00:03: They're selling generic services, if you look at most websites You'll see that agencies describe their services in very kind of no similar ways.

00:00:14: And what we have to do is actually now that AI will play a bigger role In execution really being known for the value That we create meaning moving upstream.

00:00:25: Being known For creative strategic solutioning And that means a shift of this business model from services to actually selling solutions and for being paid instead of being paid by ours, being paid for the value we actually create.

00:00:44: What is really helping agencies?

00:00:47: see if it's possible or not?

00:00:52: My guest today has spent thirty years on

00:00:57: one of the biggest agencies in the world.

00:01:02: Partou Neutemans was a CEO from Ogilvy until recently, and is now the first ambassador for Agency Value at the European Agency Association EACA.

00:01:12: Partous Thesis is as simple as that – agencies have been selling value since the tenth time and AI covers this business model problematically without pleasure!

00:01:26: The numbers that are mentioned are drastic.

00:01:39: Ninety-four percent of the agencies in German-speaking countries still expect to lose half of their GWA members, although the advertising budgets have increased by nine percent.

00:01:56: Welcome to What's Next Agencies.

00:01:59: Thank you so much for joining me today, it is a pleasure And I'm very much looking forward to talking with you about the future of the industry and learning your thoughts on effective transformation.

00:02:11: A warmly welcome to you!

00:02:13: Thank you so much, Kim, and i believe that it's my second English podcast?

00:02:18: You

00:02:18: are?!

00:02:19: Yeah... It is out-of-my-comfort zone!

00:02:21: Well ...it's Out Of My Comfort Zone To Speak German !

00:02:27: After a good glass of wine, I can get away with it.

00:02:29: But for anybody listening... It's much appreciated to actually listen this conversation in English and ...I'll do my best!

00:02:40: And hopefully they will be German next time.

00:02:43: Perfect but you know what?

00:02:45: Unfortunately i don't have a glass of Wine here so...

00:02:49: You neither only on the weekends..

00:02:51: I hope that is as fluent as possible.

00:02:58: I was really happy when we get connected.

00:03:01: And, um... We both thought that it's a good idea to talk about the future of agencies because you've seen one of the biggest networks like thirty-five years from The Inside.

00:03:13: so i'm really excited about our chat and It is now a few months since your role as a mayor CEO after thirty five years at Ogilvy came to an end.

00:03:24: I was interested like, I've never asked before but how have you spent your time since then?

00:03:31: Well...I started writing Kim.

00:03:35: Look a thirty-five.

00:03:37: well actually it was thirty years with Ogilvy three years somewhere else.

00:03:41: so i know i look young But It's very long career of Actually A lot Of long days and always being utterly productive And

00:03:51: exhausting in the way isn't?

00:03:53: I mean, it's a full-time job but also managerial.

00:03:58: Yes!

00:03:58: But good job !

00:03:59: I loved my job and am so grateful for the career that i had.

00:04:04: And realising that a very different chapter would announce itself... I actually worried mostly about that, staying productive.

00:04:16: You can't really imagine what being without a role looks like so... ...I wanted to stay productive and started writing inspired by the fact throughout my career.

00:04:33: I loved making people feel seen and supported wrote little small thank you notes and did a really, hopefully good job of making sure that people felt seen.

00:04:49: So I started writing more elaborate thank-yous basically remembering the lessons they learned me from there.

00:04:59: i also wrote an article actually about the industry at one point in time or the start of The Right Ones.

00:05:10: And that got so much response, really it was overwhelming thousands of people who commented and sent me emails with this one question if what we do has so much value which is why I wrote that article about Why does It Feel Like The Industry Is Ending?

00:05:30: a lot of passion for this industry.

00:05:40: So I continue to write mostly now lessons for leaders, particularly in the marketing industry both marketeers and agencies And one article a week which is hard work because i'm not a writer at all.

00:05:58: so...I'm not sure if am good writer today but im trying to learn.

00:06:04: that has opened up many new conversations with people who react to that content or ask my advice about something.

00:06:13: So, to be honest it's been busy and again positively busy a whole new chapter very different one but in which I'm trying give back this incredible industry that i love so much.

00:06:31: I think i came across one of those articles you posted on LinkedIn.

00:06:36: Or, like Thomas Strehrad referred the article or your post and then via this article we got connected And I loved your thoughts about industry Your perspective after thirty years at the Ogilvy side I think, i started reading your substrate newsletter then.

00:07:00: It's for everyone who wants to get inspired by Patu's ideas.

00:07:05: it is Patu Pivots which I love the idea behind that and as you mentioned on one side there are learnings from several people at the Ogilvy network in this era but also on other sides like perspectives and impulses of marketing and agency part of the industry.

00:07:26: So I love reading your articles, so everyone who wants to get in touch with that should connect via this Substack app.

00:07:36: but i also found it interesting.

00:07:38: you have one core operating philosophy which is every role and every new home as you mentioned has a pivot.

00:07:51: So I was wondering which pivot taught you the most and what did it teach you during thirty years?

00:07:58: Yes.

00:07:58: Is there one that you can mention, or are there so many who have to be struggling... It's a mobile pivots

00:08:05: as you explained!

00:08:07: I had roles in six different countries across three continents And that is life change not just kind of your career change.

00:08:20: I do believe if, and you asked me this before.

00:08:24: This kind of new period for me is also a massive pivot.

00:08:29: but as i answered um...I'm absolutely inspired by change.

00:08:34: David Ogilvy by the way had an amazing quote that said Change Is Our Lifeblood Stagnation Is Our Dead Knell And ...i really feel that too.

00:08:47: If you are grateful for anything in life is the ability to learn and change.

00:08:52: thus that.

00:08:54: For most of my career, I actually have been in change management helping Ogilvy to really adapt to every new technology.

00:09:03: Every new channel and every shifting consumer behavior.

00:09:08: but what hasn't changed throughout all that time?

00:09:11: this massive observation is our business model didn't really change.

00:09:17: so yes i had some incredible pivots for example having to lead a network in the Middle East, hardly realizing what the difference between Saudi or Egypt was.

00:09:31: Taking over of founder who is bigger than life so very big shoes-to-bill and basically trying modernize agency there as part of world that I'm little intimidated by.

00:09:45: but again learn.

00:09:47: their Change, first and foremost comes with people.

00:09:52: And if you can motivate and inspire people and demonstrate or give them a sense of what that change looks like?

00:10:00: That it actually will lead to better than... ...that is the only thing that you can do and the rest we'll

00:10:06: follow.".

00:10:07: I suppose again.. What i'm trying now is help agencies really realize AI is just accelerating a problem that we've had for a long time, which is a problem of business model.

00:10:22: And now it's our time to change and change it better.

00:10:28: That's really great topic under the umbrella.

00:10:31: what are next agencies?

00:10:32: It's kind-of perfect!

00:10:35: You told me during your last chat you'd taken on this brand new role as a first-ever ambassador for agency value at the European Advertising Association.

00:10:48: So what does an Ambassador For Value actually do?

00:10:51: And, um... As you mentioned how will you or could give some perspectives on how to change the industry or business model of the industry?

00:11:02: Yes!

00:11:03: Well it's very fancy title with... Isn't

00:11:06: that?!

00:11:06: I mean yeah!

00:11:07: Yes,

00:11:07: Ambassador!

00:11:08: I'm so happy about this!

00:11:12: It's a very short job description.

00:11:14: it really is about trying to contribute, making sure that the agency industry actually gets paid for the value its creates.

00:11:25: and The reason why I think the EACA asked me to pick up That role because as you mentioned before the agency Industry challenging times, really.

00:11:40: Times of tectonic change and the role of the EACA is to support agencies through that change.

00:11:48: so early in the year they developed a guide together with Voxcom.

00:11:52: They commissioned a guide called Redesigning The Agency Value Model And I hope you'll include the link...

00:12:01: Of course!

00:12:03: Because It really is a guide that tries to say, for decades we've actually been selling our services based on time.

00:12:15: And now that AI can make things happen faster and takes over something or corner that we got ourselves into which the corner of execution We basically followed where most work was paid by ours, which meant that we are actually more known for what we execute instead of the value we bring.

00:12:42: That's a model we created.

00:12:45: most agencies are selling time.

00:12:48: they're selling generic services.

00:12:51: if you look at most websites You'll see that agencies describe their services in very kind-of similar ways And what we have to do is actually now that AI will play a bigger role in execution, really being known for the value that we create meaning moving upstream.

00:13:10: Being know for creative strategic solutioning and human tasks only people can do.

00:13:19: That means shift of this business model from services to actually selling solutions and for being paid instead of being paid by ours, being paid for the value we actually create.

00:13:32: And that is what role it's about – really helping agencies see if this shift can be made possible?

00:13:41: I

00:13:44: love behind-the-value idea really hard for the agencies to get a proof of their impact, because they are used to calculate time and material models.

00:14:03: They're not as used as consultancy companies from a value-driven side.

00:14:11: so I think this is big mind shift that has been taken on the agency's site or perhaps even client sites.

00:14:20: And I think it's also interesting, you mentioned the EAC report and i will share that of course in the links.

00:14:29: But you dug up some pretty brutal numbers there like ninety four percent of agencies in the German-Austrian Switzerland market still billing by the hour and half of GWA members losing revenue while ad spend went up nine per cent.

00:14:47: So I think this is a really interesting evolution of the problem, isn't it?

00:14:54: On one side.

00:14:55: It's increasing like they had spent and on the other side everyone is paid by The Time in Material model.

00:15:02: so what do you thing?

00:15:04: What Do They Need to Kind Of Shift Their Systems?

00:15:09: Yes we are again In Really Critical Times as You Mentioned.

00:15:16: Global forecasts say that advertising is growing, but every association in the Western world reports that agencies are struggling and see less revenue.

00:15:29: And... The real issue there behind it's actually marketing has become a lot about execution.

00:15:40: For example, I read a recent report from CMO Talks in the Netherlands that while fifty-two percent of marketeers now again believe that actually brand can drive growth.

00:15:56: It was very necessary increase.

00:15:58: it had to happen and there were only thirty seven percent year before.

00:16:03: They also say that only twenty-seven percent of nonmarketing executives believe that actually marketing drives growth.

00:16:12: And the biggest pressure on marketing driven growth is actually short term thinking, and it's normal to see sweet actually my suppose favors performance in activation because The sales will show up in the dashboard tomorrow.

00:16:31: but what we haven't explained enough as an industry having fallen in love with everything that is new over the last few decades, it's a difference between harvesting to demand.

00:16:50: That means when I'm trying The hourly model, the problem isn't just AI actually being able to accelerate the execution.

00:17:02: The problem is this shared belief of difference that marketing can make and marketing drives real value.

00:17:12: in Belgium for example every euro invested in advertising returns eight euros to the economy.

00:17:20: We know how much value we create, every IPA paper says it.

00:17:24: Every FVPaper actually says that even clients believe it.

00:17:30: they believe that agencies really contribute value and want more of it.

00:17:38: but the problem is most studies also show what clients now favor before are creativity and our strategic thinking is execution.

00:17:50: So a lot of things actually have come together, um... And it goes back to actually demonstrating that what we do solves real business problems, we drill outcomes—and when we can demonstrate those outcomes then make the entire conversation again about the impact.

00:18:13: And that, again is what you do when you move from services to solutions.

00:18:20: Services are generic things and as such your only leave clients in procurement option to start talking about the building blocks.

00:18:30: A solution solves a real business problem with a typology that's yours and drives a real outcome on its touch.

00:18:40: maybe we can shift the entire conversation with procurement not The building blocks and the hours we spent, but actually let's really negotiate on the outcomes in value we drive.

00:18:54: And Patu you mentioned that shift to solution approach.

00:18:58: so I wonder if it is a specific solution?

00:19:03: You can as template copy of every client or if its specific... I mean behind lies.

00:19:11: question like does scale Is it like within the system that can't scale because its so tailor made for client?

00:19:22: I think we as an industry have always presented us doing everything in a customised fashion.

00:19:30: That is to certain extent true, but we can have methodology and repeatable methodologies.

00:19:37: basically And if i look at what we did with Ogilvy You apply a certain methodology to how you solve very specific client problem.

00:19:50: And so, that is why actually moving from services to solutions allows us to scale more.

00:19:59: If we have broad services and the diet goals are easy by design... ...if there's basically broad services with no repeatable methodologies it means everything you do is customized.

00:20:12: It means that you can only grow by adding people.

00:20:16: If you actually move to what we call distinctively scalable, it actually means your core expertise is codified as a methodology and those solutions drive real outcomes which means at a faster scale than actually having to hire the people.

00:20:41: So yes, having a solution or product basically allows you to scale faster then being totally customized and it doesn't take the creativity away.

00:20:51: if you think of an architect they have a methodology to build a house.

00:20:56: that doesn't mean but every house basically looks the same And that is the analogy that agencies should think off.

00:21:04: I was wondering, the two main touch points we have with our clients are for example the website and then on the other hand a chemistry meeting where we had the credential presentation.

00:21:17: So how can we promote out way of doing it?

00:21:22: Our codified system behind?

00:21:26: because when you now look at your websites a magic mystery creative bubble with a lot of wonderful and great cases.

00:21:36: But there is just, just the tiny little sentences about the impact or about their value.

00:21:42: it's just about the production value and uh... The actor or the-the-the.. Producement house or whatever.

00:21:50: um so Is It more an engineered way to show up your references?

00:21:56: Or what do you think about that?

00:21:58: Because it's kind of a balanced thing, isn't?

00:22:01: Yes.

00:22:02: Look I think if you're very broad in your services for certain clients that doesn't matter because you can offer potentially integration and the more that you actually do as part for certain clients.

00:22:30: But what I've noticed throughout my career is that most clients want deep expertise, so when this shift is about.

00:22:37: it's actually for you to think A brand can grow in many ways.

00:23:00: It can grow outside of what it currently does by addressing a new market or... inventing a new product or going through a new audience.

00:23:09: But most brands work within the context of already those things defined, and then the only way they can stick out is true differentiation.

00:23:19: again in that Kantar study I mentioned from The Netherlands it's what actually top-of-mind for every marketer how do we differentiate ourselves?

00:23:29: And it's funny, hence that agencies have never really thought about how do we actually differentiate ourselves.

00:23:37: Once you know what you want to be known for then you can build your solutions towards that.

00:23:47: obviously now today leverage AI make them even better and very clear the outcomes.

00:23:54: I just want to say that for an existing agency who describes services, but that might seem impossible.

00:24:04: And it is very necessary because if you would start an agency today or tomorrow in a world of AI agents where marketers are going to be in housing content production at scale more and recreate the agency with these generic services, as they exist today.

00:24:28: You would rethink that.

00:24:30: and so I think what this mainly means is actually developing a muscle is to start, it's not that I'm asking every agency just rich from generic services all the way to very defined solutions.

00:24:45: It's actually the muscle to start thinking in that way and to start have a conversation with your clients In That Way.

00:24:53: The guide has great example of an agency called VCCP which isn't wonderful agency in UK.

00:25:02: They say in that guide, they mostly still sell services.

00:25:08: But when they actually negotiate the value of what they're going to do... ...they have a conversation with their client about what work is worth for them and not changes that negotiation.

00:25:22: There's another agency I know which largely still sells services but it said what it really wants to contribute to clients is to understand where marketing brings value.

00:25:35: So they hire a set of experts that really do that, real very robust analysts and develop different new solutions around that.

00:25:46: so three poor solutions around while the rest are what comes after that diagnosis?

00:25:58: A long answer to say, this isn't about going from one place to another place overnight.

00:26:06: It is actually thinking what we consult clients do as well and start with a trusted client rather than just changing your website or services solutions.

00:26:23: There are few examples in the guide of companies who have done that and have done for the better.

00:26:29: It's certainly also an option, but it is not an option to do every agency as of tomorrow.

00:26:37: Patu can you mention a pioneer agency which we've seen during last few months?

00:26:44: They are doing really interesting.

00:26:46: like you mentioned VACCP

00:26:52: One of the agencies that actually reacted to one of the articles I wrote and have been really looking into because they've had an amazing track record in

00:27:05: D.U.S.,

00:27:07: being rewarded as the best agency or fastest growing agency their size, is an agency called X&O and it's a sprint-based agency.

00:27:19: It is an interesting story of two founders who come out from the big holding companies as most people in big agencies really want to be focused on delivering great ideas, great strategic solutions for their clients but realize that there was issue with the agency.

00:27:43: One was an issue is that when a client asks for the best talent, well in those agencies.

00:27:49: The Best Talent actually already working on another clients so it's very hard to get the best talents immediately released To work on this exceptional brief.

00:28:00: and the other thing Is that agencies again really pursued execution?

00:28:04: And then that execution gave a lot of free thinking away.

00:28:08: So what they developed is a strategic and creative sprint agency.

00:28:13: They sell three products, a small sprint which is the week's work.

00:28:19: A medium sprint and large sprint And they all have a fixed price.

00:28:26: The sprint basically is to actually respond to the brief with great ideas.

00:28:31: You're going to say well the Sprint is nothing unique.

00:28:34: you know so many of us do that.

00:28:36: What is interesting?

00:28:37: Is that they promise world best talent.

00:28:41: They have created a network of freelance talent for the best ex-CMOs, ex CEOs and ex chief creative officers.

00:28:50: So based on the briefing that they get to define the best possible talent in orchestrated To give their clients you know The Best Creative and Strategic Power In A Very Short Period Of Time.

00:29:02: And I think it's just great example of actually not only different business model but fixed price.

00:29:09: the fact that they never pitched him, because of course if you only sell something and it takes a week or three weeks.

00:29:17: You're not going to be able to pitch for anything but

00:29:22: there's no steady revenue right?

00:29:26: That is a disadvantage!

00:29:28: But If your horse delivers well then hopefully... What they start to demonstrate is that strategic and creative thinking actually has value without executing anything.

00:29:40: The ideation, hopefully by demonstrating that or a fixed price which hence isn't exuberant They actually get clients to really see the value of creativity again, and buy it again.

00:29:55: That's hopefully how they'll create those recurring revenue streams which obviously in a model like that are little bit more complicated.

00:30:04: I mean The approach is absolutely interesting And i have heard from the agency and visited their website some two weeks ago What was interesting for me?

00:30:17: kind of anonymous, isn't it?

00:30:19: Because you can see the exact profiles.

00:30:22: You don't have pictures from people...from founder for example.

00:30:27: so everything is cool designed and it's anonymous.

00:30:31: but I asked myself on other side what about trust?

00:30:35: because sorry!

00:30:38: The

00:30:38: two founders are known.

00:30:40: obviously something needs to receive a brief curators and the orchestrators of The Network.

00:30:47: So, the clients don't tend to see the talents that they pick to help them answer the brief but there are the uber-bowers who bring their talent together and make sure it delivers.

00:31:04: Believe that these guys actually have found the best talent for you, expert talents.

00:31:10: So if your client in a particular industry they'll find people with expertise deep, expertise in that industry or for a particular problem.

00:31:21: and so it is very different model where basically go to an agency for curation of the best talents doesn't necessarily work them.

00:31:32: It's part of a network that they can access.

00:31:35: Mm-hmm,

00:31:37: it's really interesting approach.

00:31:38: thank you for sharing that because I think one off like... For example twenty possibilities to react on the new world around us right?

00:31:49: And behind is as you mentioned this solution idea together sprints which are fixed priced with best talent and every client wants have

00:31:59: their.

00:32:01: So I would love to focus on another thing you mentioned, in one of your newsletters.

00:32:10: It's that you split what an agency can promise and the other side from which it can influence.

00:32:19: Can you explain a bit more about

00:32:26: this?

00:32:28: When we say solutions that have to deliver an outcome, many people say oh that's performance-based.

00:32:38: and when you're in marketing.

00:32:40: People believe that always means sales as well.

00:32:46: We have influence on sales, but we don't totally control it.

00:32:50: if you develop the best of campaigns.

00:32:53: But at the client doesn't put enough media behind it or the competition is launching a campaign at the same time Or your product suddenly is much more expensive because the supply chain costs has become more expensive... ...we can't really be responsible for that.

00:33:11: So What we have to understand is that a client has two choices.

00:33:16: Either they pay for an outcome or they pay time, and as an agency you can hence sell basically your time.

00:33:28: You can sell outcomes which are things that will deliver Basically And the thing's that don't influence in that?

00:33:42: bonus but can't set the total price.

00:33:45: I think if you don't mind, let's imagine a heritage brand that has lost connection with the young generation and they go to an agency of all things it could do which clearly shows what it really understands is one-generation.

00:34:13: And so they sell a program, let's say a next generation or Gen Z program.

00:34:19: That program actually delivers a few different things.

00:34:24: it delivers diagnostic of understanding why the brand doesn't connect with that audience anymore and what they can do about it.

00:34:32: By the way, That is already a valuable outcome.

00:34:36: It's not the only outcome.

00:34:37: isn't sales actually helping a brand understand something They don't know?

00:34:42: knowledge?

00:34:46: The next thing that we'll do is develop the program, and there's a creative idea.

00:34:51: There's a program it includes creators and partnerships And so we're going to deliver all of those different things.

00:34:57: What are they meant to do?

00:34:59: Is not to create sales tomorrow.

00:35:01: what they actually mean to Do is drive mental availability Of salience top-of-mind young generation with new brand again.

00:35:13: So... We can't really promise the sales, because they happen into future.

00:35:19: What we can actually be held accountable for is developing that program and testing it upfront so that tests well with potential to be able to do that.

00:35:31: And what we also Can Do Is after We've Actually Run The Program And Executed Is Have One Or Another Brand That Sees If We Actually Uplifted The Mental Availability But Only Of Course if the media dollars were there to make sure we reached enough of the audience.

00:35:49: Now, the price for all this is fixed because it's based on deliverables that we are going to give and should be based actually your advantage as an agency or specialism you've got what other agencies might go to market with and potentially could make a business case for the value it will create, sales it'll create in future.

00:36:17: Of course not at same price as the sales but basically that's you use from your negotiation.

00:36:23: The price may vary based on assumptions.

00:36:27: More markets having to deliver faster more deliverables means that prices actually change.

00:36:35: But the bonus is only based on the KPIs, and they could be if I delivered to work well.

00:36:42: If actually that's pre-test shows that it kind of no works?

00:36:48: And in this study at end of its show we've increased mental availability.

00:36:53: those are things which trigger a bonus or trigger a malice.

00:36:58: So what I'm trying to demonstrate with this is that not all outcomes are sales.

00:37:04: Actually an outcome be something a brand knows or doesn't know, it can be changing the behavior of top-of-mindness and awareness in certain stakeholder groups And It CAN BE A BUSINESS RESULT AND IT CAN TAKE DIFFERENCY.

00:37:21: BUT THE PRICE IS PIXED.

00:37:23: IT CAN VARY WITH ASSUMTIONS AND Bonus or malice is based on things, are based on KPIs that you agree with the client.

00:37:35: And that's how it basically should work.

00:37:37: so value-based isn't the same as performance-based?

00:37:44: I thank you so much for explaining that and also the difference because i know from a lot of chats with other agency owners in agency management How can we demonstrate value?

00:37:58: Because as you said, it's not always in our hands to improve revenues or have an impact on growth immediately.

00:38:13: On the other hand they are struggling also that yeah... It is kind of an assertion when you say oh!

00:38:22: Our program will lead this and that so perhaps I mean Perhaps you can't prove it because he don't know before, but that your system works and had an impact for the last three projects.

00:38:34: For example... But its kind of an assertion then!

00:38:37: And a lot people struggle with that right?

00:38:41: Absolutely.

00:38:42: That's why You Can Be Clear About The Deliverables.

00:38:46: You Can be clear about the ultimate outcomes that will drive if It Works.

00:38:53: If you don't have influence on those outcomes, what you can do is agree to KPIs.

00:38:59: And what I think it's so interesting about this and when... This is where i get excited!

00:39:04: I know that this is a massive change but ...I lived twenty years of procurement basically.. What I know the procurement wants ..is actually more value with more transparency.

00:39:22: We didn't help ourselves by making our services generic and not really discussing outcomes, because that left them the only choice actually negotiating building blocks.

00:39:34: Imagine that a negotiation would shift about this example what I've just described.

00:39:42: Let's negotiate the deliverables.

00:39:45: Let's then negotiate the ultimate outcomes, and the KPIs you will hold me accountable for.

00:39:53: What that means is that the entire conversation shifts to impact?

00:39:58: And what I love about that is... That is what marketing needs to do as well!

00:40:01: It'll help our clients—the CMOs who can go into the C-suite.

00:40:07: I need to go to this agency because i actually don't understand why the young generation doesn't buy from us anymore.

00:40:15: And that knowledge, I need that be able to make a decision.

00:40:19: everything will be then based on outcomes we'll drive conversation around and negotiation about so it would move everything into impact again Making marketing again the powerful growth lever that it can actually be and not judged for just execution, performance in communication but really a driver of growth and competitive advantage.

00:40:49: But you mentioned the procurement department.

00:40:54: I wonder how would negotiate with them about an AI discount?

00:41:01: What do you think?

00:41:02: how would the discussion be like?

00:41:06: Look, every negotiation is a negotiation and you need really good negotiation experts knowing that on the other side of the table sits negotiating experts.

00:41:21: To be honest I will try to shift the AI negotiation and actually do as per that example, as VCCP is to say okay you know whether it's an AI discount or I just want a discount.

00:41:39: It's there actually saying well here's my business case for if what we do works the value that it actually has for your company are we really going to be negotiating again?

00:41:51: The time that it takes Or Are We Going To?

00:41:54: Can Negotiate The Value That It Can Bring?

00:41:57: And as I think you mentioned to me, it's always a good negotiation technique.

00:42:04: To talk about the simple solution and then more advanced solutions than really expert solutions... ...and try get that negotiation but not keep on giving basically our value away.

00:42:16: so we have to try!

00:42:26: marketers and procurement realize that we have value, and as long as we can manage basically the risk of managing transparency for them at a conversation around value would actually be welcomed.

00:42:44: I've seen that a lot of agencies are really Like effective with price dumping at the moment, like due to those AI discounts for example or any other discount.

00:43:00: So this is a really hard situation for the market I think because on one side as you mentioned we are talking about impact and value of our industry in that part just throws it away.

00:43:14: It's really painful, isn't

00:43:19: it?

00:43:19: You're absolutely having this conversation.

00:43:25: Agencies are desperately trying to stay in the game but I think we have to realize that execution is going to move and then... That's a broad word by the way and i don't mean production But it is just a fact.

00:43:41: you know where US study already showed That's one in three marketers is going to move content production in-house, and that four out of all marketeers have cut agency budget already on their forecast for next year.

00:43:56: So it is an urgent problem And actually just keep on I suppose discounting and discounting.

00:44:04: We also know we would tell our clients not do that either And so it is really a moment of reckoning to actually quickly shift, trying to sell our value and package in way.

00:44:18: To have the conversation with our clients like that.

00:44:21: Absolutely!

00:44:25: But at end there will be consolidation on market because if budgets are shifting into in-house or other experts.

00:44:36: And even if every agency shifts on strategy and concept, an idea there's not enough money in the market so that everyone can survive.

00:44:48: What do you think about

00:44:48: it?

00:44:48: Yes!

00:44:49: On a short term its I think going to be rocky times but actually the execution becomes cheaper because advertisers do that internally.

00:45:05: The challenge of the market doesn't change.

00:45:07: Differentiation matters and marketing moves out being just about execution but actually creating differentiation, maybe money that has been saved will move back into all added value.

00:45:24: clients need special talents understanding of a market, that view they don't have internally.

00:45:33: The access to the talent they won't have and maybe yes... I think this is very black-and-white will buy.

00:45:42: their biggest need might be integration.

00:45:44: then go to big agencies that offer multiple services or their big needs will be experts and specialist talents.

00:45:56: And so I do think the market will shift to actually finding people who are the best at certain things that a client need, and if we help that shift.

00:46:12: start thinking about what differentiates you, even if a client then comes to you and asks for something else.

00:46:18: You probably will still deliver it.

00:46:20: but

00:46:20: having good sense of What makes you different?

00:46:23: And focusing your effort on Having the conversations around that we'll help you in the long term.

00:46:30: and what do you think Patu Will Help?

00:46:33: Is It More The holding company approach or the owner-managed agency approach to lead this differentiation?

00:46:43: because it's not that easy for a holding company to differentiate, right?

00:46:48: I think the market will need both.

00:46:52: That is just the case.

00:46:53: but i do think that the smaller you are and maybe the newer you are or more independent you're faster than you can do the shift Because its upto YOU at that moment.

00:47:04: It just takes you to basically make it happen.

00:47:09: And I do think that every existing agency needs to look around and see the new agencies that are coming up because if start from scratch, You're not going to define yourself by generic services and sell yourself on the hour.

00:47:23: so we see sprint agencies We see these specialist agencies AI or technology tool and sell services around it.

00:47:40: It's these new independent innovative agencies that come to the market in a new way, will I think drive this shift from bottom up?

00:47:51: Hopefully those tough times go past really quickly when conversation shifts into value we can bring because nobody will convince me!

00:48:03: That's differentiation and competitive advantage is not the way for brands to grow.

00:48:09: And that, what an agency ecosystem with its diverse talent Is built-to deliver.

00:48:19: Clients need what we do.

00:48:21: We just need to sell it To them differently.

00:48:26: You have a wonderful phrase called page ninety two.

00:48:31: I think fits really good in this moment.

00:48:35: and on your comment now, I think behind lies the idea that they're really interesting thinking.

00:48:41: In a pitch deck perhaps or pricing our business models get stuck right at the back and never actually gets sold.

00:48:48: so but i wonder why we are so bad in creative agencies selling out value?

00:48:54: Is it because we have

00:48:59: Again, because we follow the route to execution and that again is not just us marketing below that route to Execution too.

00:49:09: So clients brief us on campaigns.

00:49:12: Beliefs on execution And an IPA study recently showed that execution is what clients value.

00:49:21: the post of agencies before creativity.

00:49:24: at Kantor study that I showed you says, okay clients and marketers actually say differentiation is their biggest problem.

00:49:33: But in terms of top drivers to solve it creativity was on spot number seven.

00:49:40: so this our entire industry has come together around being more tactical.

00:49:54: We've lost actually the ability to sell and make, I suppose marketers end the C-suite belief that what we do is solving business problems with disproportionate impact.

00:50:16: not one single brief and say, oh the creative brief or the campaign of communication brief.

00:50:21: They'll also stay the client.

00:50:23: but don't you want to fill out the advantage brief?

00:50:26: The advantage brief really is try find that competitive advantage.

00:50:32: That makes it different in market.

00:50:37: So yes I think It's a business problem that we've jointly created And that by moving somewhere from services to solutions, a conversation around outcomes and the value we bring ultimately is shortcut to solving that too.

00:50:57: To make that value at not just agencies but marketing can bring visible again.

00:51:06: Now you see a lot of business models in new independent startup agency models.

00:51:15: What do you think?

00:51:16: How would the agency look like Patu would build perhaps at these times.

00:51:23: I'm going to repeat myself, Kim.

00:51:25: First of all, there are different CMO needs.

00:51:29: so we have start from that.

00:51:30: just a few that i already see again From the studies that i read.

00:51:35: A lot clients say positioning.

00:51:37: they don't Have strong enough positioning and it does really all starts with.

00:51:42: A lot of clients say they need orchestration.

00:51:46: They have so many different expertise and sets of disciplines, if we describe the future or finding the real experts that solve a particular problem it's about finding them and orchestrate him in making sure to work with everything else.

00:52:02: It is about bringing insight you don't have.

00:52:09: It's differentiation.

00:52:11: And of course, there was also AI transformation.

00:52:15: AI transformations so far for the majority of companies is a real struggle.

00:52:20: it doesn't bring immediate value and clearly has an important role to play.

00:52:25: So let us not misjudge that in any shape or form.

00:52:29: Start with needs of clients then figure out where you are strongest.

00:52:35: maybe one thing may be multiple things.

00:52:38: start with that differentiation, create your solutions around it so you clarify to the client what you uniquely bring and how they can buy from you.

00:52:50: Be very clear again about all of those outcomes and really think about

00:52:54: pricing.".

00:52:54: The guide says first define then design... Then deliver meaning.

00:53:02: even when you think about solution.

00:53:04: I did some of that adography.

00:53:07: Think about those new solutions powered by AI.

00:53:10: You're going to deliver them in a different way as well, and then only think about the

00:53:15: pricing.".

00:53:17: So that's really it.

00:53:18: I think there are multiple ways to do this—multiple types of agencies.

00:53:23: but it starts with a client need.

00:53:25: It starts with your differentiation And building everything you do what you do uniquely all of your strengths towards actually delivering value.

00:53:34: So you

00:53:37: don't have any plans to build up an agency tomorrow, right?

00:53:40: Because you love the consulting part behind it with all your impressions and perspectives.

00:53:47: I think for the moment... You never know because again times of tectonic change It changes our lifeblood.

00:53:56: But for the moment, I am so grateful for an incredible career and amazing company that would like just to give back what i've learned!

00:54:08: Just focus on that further now.

00:54:11: Focus on the ambassador role as we mentioned before sharing your perspectives.

00:54:19: exactly

00:54:20: Patu, our chat comes sadly to an end.

00:54:23: But I wanted to ask if possible a personal question at the end of our chat.

00:54:29: so you've said imposter syndrome still lurks?

00:54:32: i've read that in one of your newsletter posts.

00:54:34: So what does it actually look like at your level and What do You Do with It ?

00:54:40: How do you handle...

00:54:41: I always love when people say add Your Level.

00:54:45: Now you can edit the level and add your age.

00:54:51: Let me be clear, I know that makes people smile but i'm still just a smurf from Belgium an account executive of real and strategist who until last day at work really rolls my sleeve up.

00:55:14: There is no level.

00:55:15: And there's just somebody who has been doing this for a long time, but still with and as appreciated of every talent that are basically out there... ...and just wants to make the most of

00:55:28: it.".

00:55:28: If I talk about imposter syndrome because it comes from fear not being relevant.

00:55:43: that is a human driver, it's to wanting to make sure you still matter even if your don't have big title and job anymore.

00:55:53: And of the desire to be able to have impact.

00:55:56: but what do I have to learn?

00:55:58: Hopefully at my age i will learn that... What you've done in part through does really has value.

00:56:09: So that imposter syndrome is a good thing.

00:56:13: It keeps you on your toes, but it can't be something that holds your back.

00:56:19: and so expressing gratitude for where you've come from And being able to recognize the value that you can bring in giving that back You know needs to help that impostor syndrome to not be too strong.

00:56:36: That's really great point, thank you for sharing that.

00:56:42: So at the end this has been such a great conversation.

00:56:45: in the second podcast Recording on English it was really great pleasure having you here Bartu.

00:56:52: Thank You so much!

00:56:53: Well Kim thanks so much and to many more English podcasts.

00:56:58: I think this went well.

00:57:01: as somebody who's worked across so many countries I'm very glad to be back in Belgium and discovering an entire industry that i wasn't that familiar with, but also know across countries we share more than you are different.

00:57:18: So being able learn from perspectives of European brothers or sisters is probably the only one we all speak which is English... Do more so anybody who comes on your job!

00:57:35: podcast can learn from a big market like Germany as well, so more podcasts in English.

00:57:41: So I can listen to more...

00:57:43: Promise!

00:57:44: It won't be the last part too.

00:57:47: Thank you very much.

00:57:49: Have wonderful evening and chat soon.